Now there's another subject that could be discussed. Say someone climbs a route and tries to keep it a secret and doesn't tell anyone, and then someone else comes along and discovers it, climbs it, and goes out and tells people about this sweet climb they just found. Does the first guy have any right to be all indignant and claim the first ascent?

"Nuh-UH, YOU didn't get the FA, I did, I just didn't tell no one!"

It could happen. Especially around here.

This brings to mind "Whodunit" in Tahquitz. Nobody knows who actually climbed that route before the FA party did and found an old piton stuck in a crack halfway up....

As well as a Multitude of routes in Hatcher Pass.

That was also a subtle point.

that reminds me of andy hoyt...no disrespect, but i know he's claimed "anything you can see in hatcher pass has already been climbed by someone else," yet he is still putting up new routes (and not telling anyone).

i've put up a bunch of boulder problems (I think), but who knows...? climbing in SC Alaska, you just have to accept that you don't get a name, or a grade, or a first ascent. just start at the bottom, end at the top, and have a good time in between. it can be a bitter pill to swallow when you're proud of a route, but it's hard to be certain of a first ascent around here.

Those are the same thoughts I have on it.

When I had that discussion with Andy what I got from it was that he goes into his routes with the general assumption that they have been done before. I'm sure he knows of a few that have not been but for the most part I think thats just the best way to go about it.

I don't know the full history of the bolts on sunshine. I climbed sunshine a few years back with Pat, who was involved in the retrobolting debacle a few years before that. I don't have my scar handy, so I don't recall which route we started on, but it's a bolted 5.9, then we worked our way to sunshine ridge to top out. At that time the hangers had been taken off the bolts on the 3rd pitch, as well as off of the 3/8" stud on the bolts at the top of the second pitch. If someone wants to chop a route, then chop it and patch the holes, swiping hangers and at best petty theft. I can't see leaving the crappy 1/4" bolts at that belay and swiping the hanger off the 3/8" bolts, makes no sense.

Then I started soloing sunshine from the proper start, and noticed that there were two 1/4" bolts at the starting traverse, and a 1/4" bolt a bit higher where you work your way onto the ridge proper. I don't know how long those bolts have been there, but I have a strong distaste for 1/4" bolts. I replaced the first 1/4" bolt and the 3rd one with 3/8" bolts. I've also added hangers to the bolts that were missing hangers on the 3rd pitch, and to the top of the 2nd pitch. I removed the 1/4" bolts from the belay, as they were mank.

While I could care less about the bolts when soloing, I have taken my kids and my wife up the route. There just aren't any easily accessible long moderate routes to town. Some of my most memorable climbs have been long moderate and easy routes, and having such a route available is a big plus. It is far from an ada route, but at least there are some suitable bolts to belay from, and for new leaders there are some bolts to clip on lead.

I don't think I've ever added a bolt (where one didn't exist previously) to an existing route, and dislike the practice, unless ok'd by the FA team. I do believe in replacing manky old bolts, which is what I do whenever I get a chance. I've replaced a few on bermuda and try and improve belay and rap stations.

Hi Paul, thanks for chiming in!

and a big thanks for replacing bolts! I recently got myself a drill and the main reason is to start replacing manky bolts especially in Hatcher where manky bolts is the norm.

I've been replacing bolts off an on for 20 years, some in California before we moved up, and some on the highway.

I'm sure your familiar with ASCA, they have good info on how to pull bolts. I used to only use a crow bar, but now use tuning forks. Just make sure you have a keeper on the tuning forks, or you'll drop them. I've used a hand drill to replace bolts where power is banned, but greatly prefer power!

When you need a climbing fix, and the weather or your partner don't cooperate, consider replacing some bolts. Oh, and one pet peeve, when you replace slings at a belay, please use a netral color. As much as I like looking up at the cliffs along the highway while driving South, I don't like seeing bright slings at belay stations, just not needed!

Thanks for the good tips. That is part of the reason I bought the drill so early is because I am already gathering info for the next climbing guide update and figured I may as well replace some of the bad bolts while I am at it!